Webinar

[00:00:00] Michael Kremer: Welcome everybody. We're excited to get this kicked off today. My name is Michael Kremer and I'm with VDA, and today we have a distinguished panel of guests with us, vertical transportation consultants from around the world. And this is really a unique opportunity for us. We just came from the CTBUH show, which is fascinating 'cause it brings folks from literally all around the world.

I suspect 50 to 60% of the people that were there were from different parts of the world that was in Canada this year, and so but what it did was it just really gave us an opportunity to bring our worlds together. And when I say our worlds, of course I mean with VDA, we have expanded into different parts of the world.

Here in Canada we have Gunn Consultants. Over in the UK we have D2E, and we have experts from all of them today. And I'm going to let them introduce themselves, but really what we want to do today is we came here to discuss just some real-world elevator and escalator projects, vertical transportation projects, and give insight to the nuances and the challenges and the different things that they see around the world to allow you, the client, the audience, to understand the different challenges that we see.

And we're going to hear from folks from the US, Canada, and the UK, not just where they are domestically for their for their markets, but the projects they've done international. And we're going to keep this as a discussion and really allow them to share their insights and what they've learned over the years.

Collectively, as young as these folks look, we have collectively about 80 years of vertical transportation industry experience, so we got some really clever people, some really smart people, and I'm just going to allow them to go around down the table and tell who they are and where they're from.

So we'll start with you, Paul.

[00:01:32] Paul Burns: Hi. So my name is Paul Burns. I'm design director with D2E based out of London in the UK. Been with D2E 12 years and 20 years in the industry.

[00:01:43] Mark Fairweather: Thanks, Paul. Mark Fairweather, D2E, based in London. I'm the managing director of the UK business and as I think we'll find out later, internationally as well.

Been with D2E for 20 years now, and in the industry for 30 years.

[00:01:56] Albert Ng: Thanks Mark. I'm Albert Ng with Gunn Consultants in Canada. I'm the vertical consulting quality manager. And I work on projects across Canada.

[00:02:08] Dion Cooper: Dion Cooper with VDA. I'm based out of the United States Midwest region, regional director.

And been in the industry for roughly 17 years.

[00:02:17] Michael Kremer: Yeah. We got a great panel here, and I'm excited to hear what they have to say. We'll start. Paul, you were the last guy to talk, so I'm going to actually start with you now, so this is how that's going to work. But okay you work out of the UK.

Yeah. You've done some international projects. Yeah. Coming just from the CTBUH show let's start there. On a high level, a high scale, like what are some of those unique challenges that you've seen going from your domestic market to external, for the client, that they have seen?

If they're designing a project overseas or outside of their territory, what are some of those big challenges that they typically run into?

[00:02:45] Paul Burns: So I think in the UK market we're quite London centric in the UK market. There's a lot happening in there. Big city, lots of development. The cost of building in London is really high relative to the rest of the UK, and probably internationally, [00:03:00] so space is a real premium.

So we work a lot with machine room-less products, MRLs, and there is always a really strong drive to reduce the core space relative to the floor plate. So that net-to-gross ratio is ... that's where the drive always is. Internationally, we find that's not always the case. There are different parts of the world that have more space.

And so that's a bit more relaxed and we're able to put in the number of lifts that we think are appropriate, as opposed to trying to come up with clever technology. The drivers that we do find internationally time is always short.

[00:03:37] Mark Fairweather: Yeah.

[00:03:37] Paul Burns: And it's that reduction of program. So that we're having to do a lot of the design phases in a very short period of time, and other parts of the world, like India particularly, and the Middle East, they're looking to start construction way earlier than we are typically used to. And that puts a lot of pressure on the design side because oftentimes they'll be building to our stage reports rather than to fully scoped out construction drawings. That's a really tough one for working in different regions.

[00:04:11] Michael Kremer: Yeah. Yeah. Mark, anything different?

[00:04:13] Mark Fairweather: No. I, the only thing I'd add to that is that, and we've heard this in, at the CTBUH conference over the last few days, is one of the key things is flexibility-

...

[00:04:20] Mark Fairweather: And responsibility. So building buildings, designing buildings with a VT system that can stand the test of time. Yeah. And I think that, we, one of the things that we always say is we want to put a building together that our grandchildren will be proud of and it's still standing and it's still working. And the flexibility to understand that the use might change. So you might design it for one purpose, but actually in 20, 30, 40 years, the environment might change. It, the commercial number of desks, number of people in offices might change.

We have to make sure that we have something that is sustainable, flexible, and will stand the test of time.

[00:04:53] Michael Kremer: Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Albert?

[00:04:56] Albert Ng: Yeah. I think definitely agree to all those points. And yeah, coming off of the conference with flexibility and the timeline you're talking about there's a project that I was working on where we started off as an office building.

And due to market conditions, things were changing so fast in the last couple of years, that we ended up going from about a 10, 15 story office building into a 30 story residential tower. And so speeds had to change drastically. And there were costs associated to that, of course, 'cause on the schedule side they already poured the foundation.

So they already poured the core. Yeah.

[00:05:37] Mark Fairweather: Yeah.

[00:05:37] Albert Ng: So there was a lot of workarounds-

[00:05:39] Mark Fairweather: Yeah ...

[00:05:39] Albert Ng: around that to, to make it happen. And I don't know if internationally the different rules and code requirements but yeah, there was a lot of chipping.

Which was not fun. A lot of skin, yeah.

[00:05:54] Dion Cooper: So I'll say throughout the United States we've been seeing a lot of adaptive reuse, ... looking to [00:06:00] reinvent-

...

[00:06:00] Dion Cooper: Buildings of old into something new. As part of the conference there was a lot of talk around repurposing building, vertical cities. So a lot of the challenges that we're faced with is really examining the programming and the unique approach that developers are looking to take to their properties where we're now mixing programs that historically we may not have seen in the same property.

[00:06:21] Mark Fairweather: Yeah. And it's interesting you say that, 'cause one of the new terms that's come out, I think in our industry in the last few years, is that word repurposing. And particularly in London knocking down a building now is almost a no-no.

[00:06:31] Dion Cooper: Sure.

[00:06:32] Mark Fairweather: And so if you've got the fabric, the frame, and like you were saying, once you've poured those foundations, there's an awful lot that's gone in there. Knocking that down doesn't make sense for our sustainability and carbon goals. And there are definitely different challenges from a VT point of view for putting lifts, elevators, sorry-

into a repurposed building where often you've got changes in floor levels, 'cause traditionally they were lower. And it, it creates a whole new challenge that we relish in the early stages sitting down with architects and designing that. But it's a different ballgame.

[00:07:05] Paul Burns: Absolutely.

It's good points about the repurposing because that is, as Mark said, I guess five years ago, six years ago, the default would've been level the building, build new.

[00:07:18] Albert Ng: Yeah.

[00:07:19] Paul Burns: And if not that, then certainly rip out the elevator entirely. See, I'm doing it now, elevator. We're back. We're back. So rip out the lifts and start fresh.

Yeah. Yeah. But retaining the core brings massive challenges-

[00:07:33] Albert Ng: Yeah.

[00:07:33] Paul Burns: Yeah ... particularly because clients are looking to add massing to buildings. Put two, three floors on top of the building. So then you've got a building that was designed for a certain occupancy. You're not only putting more floors on top of the building, but you're probably increasing the density of the occupancy in the building as well.

[00:07:52] Albert Ng: Yeah.

[00:07:54] Paul Burns: Very finite core, so you've only got three, four, six lifts, whatever it is. And then the challenge is where can we take the technology? Where has the technology gone that we can apply to this? Because physically, we're not going to change anything. The footprint is the same.

The number of lifts are the same. So now we've got to get really clever with the technology and the software and so on, to be able to make that building work. So big challenges in order to respond to the sustainability argument and the carbon argument.

[00:08:21] Albert Ng: Paul, on internationally in your region, depending on kind of the re-scoping of the repurposing of the building at some point when we work with architects the jurisdiction's going to say, "You know what? Yeah, old code doesn't apply anymore." "We got to go, we got to go bigger." So inevitably, there's parts of the program that we're going to need to make a slightly bigger core or even, open up the openings.

If we're lucky, we might have some space. Is that a mandated requirement in your part of the world?

[00:08:57] Paul Burns: Yes and no, which is [00:09:00] not helpful, but at some point you need to add lifts. And we recognize that. There's only so far you can go with increasing the speed, tinkering around with door speeds, acceleration jerk, that kind of stuff.

It's only going to take you so far, and it's incremental improvements, and then at some point you need increased lifting capacity. So the core gets bigger. That starts to impact the viability of the building 'cause of that net-to-gross ratio that's changing. So the way to then offset that and get your revenue back is to go higher.

[00:09:29] Dion Cooper: Sure.

[00:09:30] Paul Burns: And then you're chasing speeds again because you're after performance, and it's that kind of balance all the way. So I think to answer your question, there's not so much a mandated statute, like a legal requirement to achieve something, but the commercial argument is what drives that.

And the client is not going to go ahead if the building is not viable. If you're not going to make revenue and pay for it-

[00:09:53] Albert Ng: Sure ...

[00:09:53] Paul Burns: then that's the bit that drives it. The yes part to that is We have codes coming in, and we have standards coming in and changing and being updated, particularly fire and life safety.

And in the UK, we've just had a new evacuation standard being introduced which has got everybody very excited, and we're all trying to figure out how it gets implemented and so on. So once we go to that, we're going to change the core. We're going to put in new lifts.

I've been in the US and Canada for 10 days, and obviously it's happened. Yeah. It's working. It's really... It's subtle. I'm trying to clever how you do this. So once we start putting in the new infrastructure, then the new codes have to apply, and then that has a big impact on what that whole core looks like.

Yeah. So that's the kind of yes, no bit. One is the commercial side. One is a very practical code relevant side to it.

[00:10:50] Dion Cooper: I'll say in the States, performing a code review, especially when you're looking at adaptive reuse, is vital.

Because within the States, if you're looking to change the classification of a building, say you're going from office to hotel, in most cases that precludes you from any grandfather conditions.

[00:11:05] Paul Burns: Huh.

[00:11:05] Dion Cooper: So you're looking at stretcher sizes, you're looking at car sizes, you're looking at emergency evacuation elevators, fire service access elevators. So there's a multitude of elements that you have to factor in, which may have a significant impact on that core that's existing.

[00:11:19] Mark Fairweather: And I think the other thing that's really important in this whole conversation as well is that to try and reuse shafts that are existing we have to understand what technologies and innovations the OEMs or suppliers are bringing to the market. Because, when we're having these early conversations with architects, it may well be that we can do something different because of the technology, even that's we know is coming in two, three, four years down the road.

[00:11:42] Dion Cooper: Sure.

[00:11:42] Mark Fairweather: Just us staying close but independent to the various suppliers is vital so that we can actually bring those conversations to the table and maybe come up with a solution which suits everybody, because we can reduce the core size, but we can still go up higher, and we can still serve the population of the building.

So I [00:12:00] think it's interesting when you listen to all this the bit to me which is vital when you're talking about any repurposing or design of a building is our involvement right up front.

Really early on in the whole equation. Because if we're not there when these decisions are being made, it's too late.

The core's been decided and we come along and say “hang on a sec, you need six of those. You've only got four. It's not going to work."

[00:12:22] Michael Kremer: That's a great point. That was a question I was going to ask. Talk about the involvement. You guys are going through a bunch of things that I'm just guessing clients don't inherently know and would be surprised to find out later. So let's start with that. Let's talk about a little bit there where it's best for a vertical transportation consultant to step into, right? Where, when's the best time? I assume early, but let's be a little bit more specific about that, not only where you step in but step- you mentioned sounds like, your job was done and, oh, this this building got repurposed, so you're probably a lot more involved all the way through.

But walk us through that value chain where we find yourself, sir.

[00:12:57] Dion Cooper: Yeah. I would say mid-concept design, once you have baseline programming established running those preliminary simulations to verify the quantity of elevators as well as understanding how the population is going to move throughout the facility really helps to inform the design team of a core size, at least from a preliminary perspective. And then we continue to iterate that model as you proceed through schematic design and even into design development for some projects just to make sure that there aren't any changes that may impact your system. A great example is rooftop terraces.

Everyone loves a rooftop terrace, but it has a significant impact on your elevator system.

[00:13:34] Mark Fairweather: Yeah. No good when they tell you that at the end, is it? Exactly. Yeah. Sounds brilliant. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:40] Dion Cooper: Indeed.

[00:13:40] Paul Burns: I think, and I think I support that completely, Dion. Yeah. I think it's... and almost earlier, if you're getting pre-concept, if you're getting really early doors.

So I have...with our team, we have a standard operating procedure. We have a standard practice that the inquiry comes in, we receive the request for a proposal, and we'll arrange a call with the client before we've ever issued our proposal or got involved contractually or anything.

So that first call with the client to really understand what their priorities are. And because in those calls you get stuff that's not written in the request for the

[00:14:17] Dion Cooper: RFP. Absolutely.

[00:14:18] Paul Burns: And they'll say, "The program's really important and I'm on a really short deadline and I've got to turn this around in, in a year and a half or something."

Or there's something else that's really important to them that if it's missed, then where's the value add? Where's the added value- ... for the project? So absolutely the earliest. And that conversation can then drive out a lot of these kind of things. "Yeah, the agents have told me that a roof terrace is going to get me X revenue and so I really want to do that."

Okay, now we know, now we have to factor that in. So really early doors.

[00:14:49] Albert Ng: Yeah. I... Sorry. With, just pick up the phone call, give me a call is what I always tell the architect. You got something going on, let me help you guide you through that process.

It's because, what makes the [00:15:00] building feasible, not feasible or kind of the horizon that you're planning towards against the schedule. Because, yeah, there's code changes. I need to make you aware that in this scenario, if we do it before this code, after that code, it makes a significant impact.

Needless to say, understanding the programming, for sure. That's a big piece.

[00:15:20] Mark Fairweather: And I think some of the most successful projects we've been involved in, we are literally there in the first meeting and a professional design team has been assembled and you've got everybody in the room that you need.

You've got the structurals, you've got the GOs, you've got the architects, you've got the designers, you've got the agents who know what's going to sell at the end. And I think a lot of people don't realize there's a building we've been involved in, a huge building in London, which has just been PC'd open- Wow

a lovely, shiny building. Our involvement started with that 10 years ago, or

[00:15:50] Paul Burns: 12.

[00:15:50] Mark Fairweather: Oh, yeah. 12 years ago. 12 years.

So 12 years ago somebody had a vision that they're going to build this building. They got a team of people together. Luckily, we were one of the first people involved in it because look you then got your input.

And now 12 years later, that building's gone up. And the importance of that timescale as well goes back to what we're saying about, you think an elevator 12 years ago and an elevator today is a different beast. Codes have changed. Technology's changed. Look at your Apple phone.

12 years ago an iPhone 6. That's it. We're all going to be on 17s by the end of the year. And so when you think of the, how the technology has changed, particularly with control systems and the way buildings interface with users, we have to be thinking about those things 12 years ago to deliver the building today.

And also flexibility. We need to be able to change the design as we go through to meet the change in technology. So the answer is as early as possible. And when somebody's got a vision and an architect's decided, "Hey, I'm going to build this tower and it's going to be for this purpose," they need structure.

They need lifts because that building's not going to work without those two things.

[00:16:54] Michael Kremer: Yeah. One of the things I find interesting, and Mark, you mentioned it a little earlier just keeping up with all this stuff. You guys… part of your daily work is to talk to the vendors, to work with the vendors. But it's also very important to keep your independence. And then just talk about that a little bit because I think I've heard clients ask that question who do you recommend?" Yeah. And I... That's a loaded question. It is. But I think it's a fair one to ask.

So how do you guys go through that process? And I'm sure it's different regionally, and I'm sure it's different whether you're doing your project domestically or internationally. Albert, we'll start with you. Just how do you keep up with the vendors, the choices, and how do you make your recommendations when you enter into a project?

[00:17:33] Albert Ng: When I enter into a project, I have to understand yeah, what the objective of the project is and how big that scope is. Some bigger players, they'll have the deeper kind of resource and bench to do that kind of scope and versus, it's a more unique and boutique building.

And some of me, the smaller guys can play in that game. And, I don't know how it is in Europe and the rest of the world, but I think in North America we can say [00:18:00] that there's ebbs and flows even within the industry themselves and the service that they provide.

So a good provider now might change in a couple of years. And having that pulse and being able to give our client a bit of that intel on kind of the service that they'll be receiving aside from also the different product lines that are available making that decision is a big part of the construction.

[00:18:26] Paul Burns: Yeah. Oh, boy. Pulse is a really good word. Yeah.

[00:18:29] Albert Ng: Yeah.

[00:18:30] Paul Burns: It describes it really well. Yeah.

[00:18:31] Albert Ng: Yeah.

[00:18:32] Paul Burns: I think, it certainly, so from our perspective, from D2E's perspective our kind of how do I describe it? Our objective is to be the most knowledgeable. That's what we would- Yeah.

We don't want- Our vision.

[00:18:44] Mark Fairweather: It's

[00:18:44] Paul Burns: our vision. Yeah. We don't want to be-

[00:18:45] Mark Fairweather: Yeah ...

[00:18:46] Paul Burns: the biggest commercially, or the most number of people. We've always wanted to be the most knowledgeable in the industry. And the way we go about that is by a lot of investment in research. So we'd spend time with the suppliers.

We go to their factories. We meet them. We build up those relationships with them, and we do it for all of them. So, if you're going to be independent, you either talk to nobody or you talk to everybody and if you're going to be independent and knowledgeable, then you talk to everybody.

So it's about having that knowledge of who offers what. Who's better, and to your point, about who's better in different circumstances. So we've got the kind of tier one global suppliers. We spend time with them. We know their products really well. We've also got quite a large independent market-based, made up of organizations that manufacture lift packages. So they create the whole product. And they sell that to completely separate installers, who buy it as a package and then install it, right the way through to other organizations who will buy components from third-party suppliers.

So they'll take a motor from here, and a drive from there, and a controller, and a door operator, and a set of safety gear, and all the rest of it and they will engineer and build that- ... that lift together. And each of those segments of the market have their place within the business. So if we're looking for a very large iconic building that's super tall and all the rest of it that's probably your tier one global suppliers, 'cause they've got the capacity, they've got the knowledge, they've got the support in the back of the house. If we've got a smaller building that's a residential or a healthcare or something like that, then the flexibility of the independent market is really valuable.

[00:20:28] Mark Fairweather: Sure.

[00:20:29] Paul Burns: The global suppliers have a process, and sometimes you get computer says, "No, we can't do it," because of the process.

The independents are more flexible and so on. So a ton of investment financially and time-wise in research and knowing what's out there. And then being able to think, "Okay, this, my client now wants this. This is probably going to go in that direction, therefore my tender list is going to be these organizations, not these organizations."

[00:20:55] Michael Kremer: So I can't just Google it anymore. I just can't Google-

[00:20:57] Paul Burns: No ... what's the best or ChatGPT, right? And actually, so that's a really good [00:21:00] point. AI is everywhere.

You go to one of the AI LLMs and put in “write me a lift spec," you'll get a fantastic lift spec, but it won't mean anything to anybody. It won't address... You'll get yourself into so much trouble.

[00:21:14] Mark Fairweather: And I think that, to me, independence is absolutely key, and it's a balancing act.

And it's a difficult balancing act because we're a small industry. We know this 'cause we've come together now under the VDA banner.

[00:21:26] Dion Cooper: Yeah.

[00:21:26] Mark Fairweather: And I'm meeting people that I worked with 20 years ago that I just know from the industry, and so we have a lot of friends in the industry. Yeah,

[00:21:33] Dion Cooper: sure.

[00:21:34] Mark Fairweather: And keeping your friendships and your independence side-by-side is difficult.

But whenever we do a job, whenever we do a job for a client, we have to go to tender. We, it's never a, "Hey, look, it's a done deal. We're going to go to one supplier or another." So putting a package together, understanding which three suppliers or five suppliers can deliver that package is really important.

And that, you're right, that's about relationships with the supplier, but those relationships should never get in the way of your own and at D2E, we've got a few tools that we've built over the years. First of all, ethics is really important. Yes. So making sure that you- Yes ... have that barrier between what you're doing with suppliers.

But secondly, we have some procurement tools that we use where we can actually take three bids and we can analyze them, and we can be completely open and fair, and we can say, "Hey company A, you're 86% compliant. Company B, you're 92. Company C, you've won this bid because of..." And it's important for us to be able to go into a meeting afterwards with those three suppliers and say, "You've won it, you haven't won it, you haven't won it, and these are the reasons why."

And it may well be a friend you're looking in the eye, and you have to be able to give them that honest feedback as to why they have or haven't won it. And the important thing there is you want them to know that's an independent view, not because you're friends with someone or you went out for a drink with someone.

So it's really important, the independence. And just going back to I think your original question there, which is important, which is who…and we get asked by clients sometimes, “I'm doing this job. Who would you go to?"

And it's a really difficult question because we are independent, and it does ebb and flow. And some OEMs are better than others at different times. And better at things at different times. But also the other thing that we have the knowledge of, which really helps, is we know their capacity.

We know the jobs they're working on in an area or in the City of London, for example, and we know that we can highlight it as a risk that, yeah, okay, company A you might want to go with, but we know they're really at capacity at the moment, and maybe you should consider company B because it might have better.

So, it's very difficult. And the last point I'd make on that as well is that, one of our jobs, you're talking about investment in research and understanding. I invest a huge amount of my time making sure that at least quarterly, but monthly, I meet up with all the managing directors of all of these companies, not only the OEMs but the independents, have a cup of coffee with them, build a relationship with them. And it's vital. So you know, when a project doesn't go to plan, I can always pick up the phone even on a Saturday and [00:24:00] say, "Hey something's going wrong, can you help?” And those relationships- and by the way, and it'll be the same with you guys as well- those relationships go from the local managing directors all the way up to the CEOs of the companies. And it's vital that we have that link.

[00:24:13] Dion Cooper: Yeah. And I'll say in the States we take a holistic approach, right? So we're looking not just at the front end, but we're also looking at the serviceability.

[00:24:19] Mark Fairweather: That's good.

[00:24:20] Dion Cooper: Does this vendor have the ability to maintain this equipment for the lifespan? We're looking at a 20-to-30-year partnership for a lot of these projects. So we start with, working with the client to understand if there's any vendors that he had history with and that he'd like to work with.

And with starting in the process early, we're able to set those cores in a manner that allows for us to be a bit flexible between multiple vendors. And then as we proceed through the tender process, we're able to further refine those cores as we approach to, selecting a vendor.

[00:24:51] Albert Ng: Keeping that relationship and maintaining it gives us the insight also to the capabilities technologically too.

There's a lot of standard products- ... and as, as much as we get kind of bids sometimes that are based on standard products with limitations and we're allowed to say "Hey, guys wait a second. Wait a second. I know you've done a job that is … and I know you can tweak. So let's work together here."

[00:25:16] Michael Kremer: Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, very good point. Yeah. This is great. And I see you guys as really the funnel, right? I mean…the clients are coming to you, and I trust you to give me the right information so I can make a good informed decision, right?

Yeah. And I've seen that. And Mark, how you put that is great. It's nice to be able to look someone, your friend in the eye, and say, "We didn't go your recommendation." Because also they know that you're being honest in future ones too, right? So we're all being represented well.

Yeah. So I can appreciate that. Probably not always the easiest thing to do.

[00:25:42] Mark Fairweather: No.

[00:25:42] Michael Kremer: But it's the right thing to do.

[00:25:44] Mark Fairweather: And having those partnerships, and they are partnerships with the suppliers, is absolutely vital because we're not going to exist as independent lift consultants if we don't have those partnerships with the suppliers. It's vital.

[00:25:54] Paul Burns: That's when it works best.

[00:25:56] Mark Fairweather: Yeah.

[00:25:56] Paul Burns: So the supplier comes with the attitude of wanting to be a partner.

[00:26:00] Mark Fairweather: Yeah.

[00:26:00] Paul Burns: So we all know there are going to be issues during the process. And if they come, and we come to the project looking to find solutions, then it works best.

Yeah. I think when we...to your point about looking your friend in the eye-

[00:26:14] Mark Fairweather: Yeah ...

[00:26:15] Paul Burns: that's always in the back of your mind when you're doing the assessment. At some point I'm going to have to sit with you and say, "Look, Michael, sorry, it didn't work out this time, and here are the actual solid factual reasons why."

Not just because, "Do you know what? I felt it for them more this time than I did you and it was just the day I was having.” So, you've got to have a good solid reason.

[00:26:34] Michael Kremer: Yeah.

[00:26:34] Paul Burns: And they all want to know because they all want to win the next job. So if there's something-

[00:26:39] Michael Kremer: Yeah

[00:26:39] Paul Burns: okay, technically this piece of software you didn't have, sure as eggs they'll be back to the factory at that day and saying you need to develop this because we want to win the next project."

[00:26:48] Michael Kremer: So

[00:26:48] Paul Burns: it

[00:26:48] Michael Kremer: just- that's competition. That raises all ships, right?

[00:26:50] Mark Fairweather: And also we have to be respectful of the time. We know, 'cause we put bids together, how much time and effort they're putting in to these bids. Sure. It's a huge investment for them, and they [00:27:00] therefore want to know why they've lost it, of course, or why they haven't won it and what they need to do later.

So, we have to be respectful of that as well. And one of our guiding principles that we use if a client comes to us and says, "Okay, who would you recommend?" And we recommend these people. If they say, "Oh, yeah, for guide pricing can you put this company on?" Would you use them? "No." Then no we won't because I'm not going to waste that person's time.

So when we're putting a spec out to tender for a project, everybody on it knows they've got an equal chance of winning it. If we want to get guide pricing, fine, we'll phone them up and say, "We just offer a guide price." But we won't make them go through that whole process because we know, we all know how long that takes and how much investment it is.

Yeah, absolutely.

[00:27:38] Michael Kremer: Yeah. So let's go back to the international stuff for a moment. Paul, you mentioned something I thought was really fascinating earlier that we might not think about here in the States, for example. Just to use that as an example. London. It's a much older city than we have really here in the…we have, of course we have a few, but the point is you have specific things you can and can't do because there's historic districts and all this. So that's an example, right? Those are some of the challenges that you guys probably see or your clients see when they go abroad, when they're taking their project, maybe they're leveraging us.

Talk about some of those, I don't know, fun, unique, challenging ones that you guys have seen when you've gone abroad. For the perspective of, if I'm a client listening right now, what should I be thinking about? I would have never thought “Oh, yeah, that's in London's historic district, or I'm in Paris and I can't build- only so I... those are maybe some of the easier ones.”

What are some of the things that you guys have seen that maybe caught your clients a little off guard to say, "Never thought about that." What are some fun, challenging, unique ones that you guys have run across?

[00:28:34] Dion Cooper: I'll say in the States within a lot of areas you'll have landmark preservation where you're looking to retain certain artifacts that are deemed to be historical significance. And from an elevator perspective, elevator entrances, doors, when you get into a lot of the art deco lobbies are elements that we typically want to try to retain. But a lot of those elements also are in conflict with the current code, so it's a bit of a difficult balancing act to try to retain the essence of the historical elements while bringing the device up to--

[00:29:04] Michael Kremer: You're saying that everything is perfectly harmonized and it's simple. That's

[00:29:07] Paul Burns: that's- Exactly. Oh,

[00:29:08] Michael Kremer: Yeah. Okay.

[00:29:09] Paul Burns: That kind of 1920s New York ironwork entrance and all that, so that's not really--

[00:29:13] Mark Fairweather: Yeah. And, do you know, I think it's interesting because when you work around the world, and it's fascinating working around the world there's only a few sets of codes and standards, and we all work to them and we all understand them quite clearly, but two things. 1) No two buildings that we've ever done, we've probably worked on a thousand buildings, no two are the same. So you have to treat every project as unique. And most importantly, when you're going to a new area or a new zone, you have to understand the local culture because it is often a cultural thing.

We got involved in a, I can remember this, in a study for a university in the Middle East once, and we're trying to work out the- it overpopulated.

They had two entrances. It wasn't working. It turned out that they had a male entrance and a female entrance, and it was incredibly important to them.

[00:29:56] Paul Burns: Yeah.

[00:29:57] Mark Fairweather: But the males and females were so outnumbered that we had [00:30:00] one core of lifts which were underpopulated and one over. And it made it re- Now, if we hadn't asked that question- and established that-

[00:30:06] Paul Burns: Yeah ...

[00:30:07] Mark Fairweather: we would've got off on the route saying “You're not 100 lifts, it's fine. We got two entrances. Just divide the population and you're good." So those are little examples-

[00:30:12] Paul Burns: Yeah ...

[00:30:12] Mark Fairweather: of understanding the cultural differences in countries, which can be really important and absolutely affect how a system's going to work.

[00:30:20] Paul Burns: So we've not long opened an office in Mumbai, India. We've got a fantastic team there.

A growing team there. And we've been going out to support the establishment of the team the clients and so on, and they've won three fabulous projects, really prestige projects.

And it wasn't the client that got the education, it was me. So some of these buildings, they've got big open conference center type places, and the Indian wedding, the big society...is a really big thing-

[00:30:52] Michael Kremer: for sure ...

[00:30:52] Paul Burns: in India, and it's not something I'm familiar with.

So we were talking about lifting to a conference center, and one of the guys who are out there leant over to me and he said, "I need to educate you about Indian weddings before we go into this meeting." Okay, great. Go on then. And he said, "Generally you can expect 3,000 people coming to this wedding." And I'm like, okay. We need to have a look at the number of lifts here."

[00:31:16] Mark Fairweather: Yeah. The arrival rate. Yeah.

[00:31:18] Paul Burns: Yeah. But not just that, it's not just the number. And of course, they're all arriving at the same time for the start of the event, which is like all day.

But also we need to look at the fill factor of the elevator, how quick, how full the elevator gets. We need to reduce that right down, because the clothing is extraordinary and it's big.

You can't get 80% full lifts for this particular event.

We can only work to about 30%, and so suddenly now you've got a set of design parameters that you never thought you were going to use in terms of arrival rate, in terms of demand, in terms of fill factor. Yeah. But it's really important regionally. There, there've definitely been some education.

[00:31:57] Mark Fairweather: Oh that’s fascinating. On that, I'll just chip in because it's fascinating. When I was out in Mumbai, I don't know whether you saw it, there's the biggest passenger lift in the world that's been built there. Oh. It's a 210-person passenger lift, and it's incredible.

And that has been built purely for that reason, because there's three levels and the wedding party need to come in, and the bride and groom need to stay together with all the party and then go up three levels to the reception area. And that's the sole purpose of this, and it's an incredible bit of machinery.

210 people. Yeah, it's huge. So that's a party ... feeds into what you were saying.

[00:32:29] Albert Ng: I think by default sometimes, you get into a zone where you work in a particular region and you make certain assumptions. But you guys made the flight over here and realized, "Oh, Canada's huge."

Yeah.

[00:32:41] Mark Fairweather: Yeah.

[00:32:42] Albert Ng: And an office tower that is in Vancouver or the major cities, Toronto, they, they may have certain kind of requirements. But if I'm working in a smaller city, those kind of regional differences too impact how we design how we approach the project.

[00:32:59] Dion Cooper: Yeah, [00:33:00] I think, looking at loading in New York City, for example, versus a loading in Minneapolis, those are going to be two very different dynamics. People just have a different level of comfort with loading and we always try to take that into account

[00:33:13] Paul Burns: when

[00:33:13] Dion Cooper: we're- Yeah.

[00:33:13] Paul Burns: Yeah.

Yeah, that's a good point, and personal space.

[00:33:15] Mark Fairweather: And the size of

[00:33:16] Paul Burns: people-

[00:33:17] Mark Fairweather: ... As well. They vary across the different zones. Absolutely. I think to me the important thing for all of us is that- To work in, we can work …and like you say, Canada's a huge state and it's a huge country, so you've got different nuances in different places.

If we have two things, we can put a successful lift package together in any country or any region in the world. And the two things are local knowledge is vital. We've opened this office in Mumbai. We would not be successful if we hadn't employed local people.

So local knowledge. And the second thing is our approach and all of our approach to any project is, number one, always treat it as unique. And number two, you said earlier, pick up the phone and find out from the client what they're actually trying to achieve. And if we've got not, like I say, not just an RFP, not just a written document saying, "Hey, look, we want this and this is the timescale," but really getting into the feel of what they're trying to achieve and what the building's purpose is, we can then design anywhere in the world. Because the codes are the codes. We can do those. Understand what the client needs, have a local input, and we'll deliver a great building at the end.

[00:34:18] Paul Burns: Agreed. Something we're experiencing a lot with the international, the first big question is what are you going to design to?

Yeah. So in terms of a standard, a code, et cetera. London-centric UK, we know the EN codes really well. The A17.1 codes we, we have a working knowledge of, but it's not what we use every day.

[00:34:35] Mark Fairweather: Yeah.

[00:34:35] Paul Burns: So internationally, those sets of codes are typically what everybody looks to.

[00:34:41] Mark Fairweather: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:42] Paul Burns: So those are the ones that everybody looks to, and they want to work to.

And we need to establish with the client and the client team which way you're going to go.

[00:34:50] Mark Fairweather: Yeah.

[00:34:50] Paul Burns: One of the great things about this now partnership is I've got people I can ring-

[00:34:55] Mark Fairweather: Yeah ...

[00:34:55] Paul Burns: and say-

[00:34:56] Mark Fairweather: Yeah …

[00:34:56] Paul Burns: “What's the new one for this? I want to do this. What would you guys do with the other codes?” And we can get really good answers quickly.

[00:35:04] Michael Kremer: Yeah.

[00:35:04] Paul Burns: Rather than me having to spend, half a day reading through to pick it out and translate the language and all that kind of stuff.

[00:35:10] Michael Kremer: Yeah.

[00:35:11] Albert Ng: And to maybe just jump into a little bit more with regards to codes.

Yeah, there's the two kind of world standards that- Each country has different ways of implementing it. The different versions of code that is on.

[00:35:25] Paul Burns: That's a good point.

[00:35:26] Albert Ng: And in North America, each state or each province has also their nuances to adjust to. So that ultimately makes a big difference. And the technologies that's going to be implemented, the safety that's tied to the building.

[00:35:43] Michael Kremer: Let's talk about that for a second. Let's talk about some of the trends that you guys might be seeing on that global, like with codes or any- Let's start with codes though, right? I mean… how are these evolving from where they were from the... When you started that project that was a ... And then all of a sudden, like however long that goes, like you see these [00:36:00] things evolve over time, right? And countries, regions adopt them differently. Just talk about some of those trends that you're seeing, and maybe on a macro level, and maybe if you've got a micro example too. But what do you see with some of these?

[00:36:10] Dion Cooper: So I'll say across the United States although we use A17.1 exclusively, there's variations of it that are used from municipality to municipality.

And to take it a step further, there are also variations that are applied that are unique to that local jurisdiction. So it really becomes important to really dive into that local code to understand those needs, 'cause there are some nuances that will have a significant impact on the building design.

And then as a whole, from a code perspective, we've seen an increase in safety components such as enhanced communication. Where now we have two-way communication to try to support the hearing impaired within elevators. We're starting to see enhancements with door safety edges, where we're looking at 3D edges versus standard 2D edges. Just to name a few. We mentioned earlier the emergency evacuation elevators. That's something that's also becoming more popular in some of our high-rise projects.

[00:37:00] Albert Ng: And I think the trend wise, barrier-free, the definition of what barrier-free is, is evolving quickly, and to be inclusive of the community that's out there the code is constantly changing.

It changes every three years for B44 and A17.1. And just being on top of that to know, okay that's the trend that we need to focus on to make sure that the building at the end of the day is compliant. And also change in technology with internet, tying into the internet.

Privacy requirements, remote access requirements. That's a new element that you don't get tapped into until now.

[00:37:49] Mark Fairweather: And I think that the important thing there, you just mentioned with technology, so codes change for two reasons, but one primarily in that is accidents.

[00:37:56] Michael Kremer: Yeah.

[00:37:57] Mark Fairweather: You're measuring your accidents and what's happening around the world, and everyone goes, "Oh, do you know what? We need to update something here, 'cause there's obviously a danger.” So that's the primary reason why codes change and why we need to keep up with codes.

The other reason is technology, but unfortunately I don't think codes can ever keep pace with technology. And sometimes they're loose enough to allow the technology to develop, and other times they're not. And that's why you have a set of codes, but we also have a, right across the world, a set of best practice.

And best practice and guides that we often work to are really important. We have several in London that we use all the time as our guides, and they're not law, they're not legal, but they're very important. And we found working, for example, in India, they're often really excited to know what our best practices are in the UK, and probably what our best practices are in the States and in Canada. Because what we're doing then collectively as a group of consultants now worldwide is bringing all of the best practice from all around the world-

[00:38:56] Paul Burns: Yeah ...

[00:38:57] Mark Fairweather: into a project- ... that we're delivering. It has to be [00:39:00] code compliant always, like you say, otherwise it won't get signed off.

But sometimes when we're talking there about technology, those codes aren't kept up with technology, but we are because we know the best practice from what you guys are doing and we're doing. And so I think it's a big subject.

And staying on top of codes and code changes is really important, but also understanding best practice and technology.

[00:39:21] Albert Ng: Best practice part, yeah, that's a good way to frame it because, we're talking about adaptability and the longevity of the building. It is well, the best practice allows us to stay ahead of the curve so that the building can continue to operate in a future application, whatever it may be.

[00:39:39] Paul Burns: Yeah. No, agreed. We've undergone a bit of a seismic shift in London recently in the last few years to do with, is it an order?

[00:39:46] Albert Ng: Yeah.

[00:39:47] Michael Kremer: Yeah. Give it to the customer, take it. The DoorDash will be here in a moment.

[00:39:53] Paul Burns: So in the last, and it's probably more years than I can remember, but we had a terrible fire in London and in a tower block, and a lot of people were killed, and it really shone a spotlight on the industry- the construction industry. And a lot has come out of that in terms of investigations, new laws, being able, not being able, but a requirement to demonstrate capability. They really want to give us the order. They do.

[00:40:22] Michael Kremer: It’s a hard order. It is, yeah, it's...

[00:40:24] Paul Burns: being able to demonstrate capability and I'm struggling for the word, but that we need to demonstrate we're competent, that's it. Yeah. Yeah. Competency.

And there's a much bigger focus on demonstrating competency to do the task and the job that we're employed to do. So fire life safety, evacuation, all that side of the industry, certainly in London, has underwent on this seismic shift.

And there's a greater burden on us as a consultants now to demonstrate we know what we're talking about. We can prove that in terms of education, certification, ongoing learning, all that kind of stuff. But I'd say fire life safety is really paramount currently.

[00:41:06] Mark Fairweather: Good.

[00:41:06] Paul Burns: I think everybody is trending towards the remote monitoring. In its purest form, it's great because it's solving problem and getting lifts back into service without having to send a person to the site.

I think it's early introduction had been more about, "Oh, here's a new service we can charge for," rather than "Here's a new service the client can benefit from." That's shifting now, so that's certainly changing. But those are the things I see. And in London, the sustainability element is really important as we talk about carbon now as a currency in London almost as important as pound, shillings, and pence. And we do have some clients who will make decisions based on what the carbon argument is-

[00:41:53] Albert Ng: Yeah ...

[00:41:53] Paul Burns: as, as much as what the financial argument is.

[00:41:56] Michael Kremer: Yeah. Fascinating. Yeah. As we get into the last 10 minutes [00:42:00] here, just I got a few questions left. So what I want to know is, like when we get in our own trades, right?

And I'm on the marketing side, so I get really excited about little things that no one else in the world find interesting at all, right?

But, I want to know what you guys as the kids like to say, what do you guys geek out about? You know what I'm saying? What is it that you guys really see when a project comes in and you're like, "Yes!”

Or you get to do it. So what are those things whether it's a trend, whether it's a specific type of market that you get to serve or some place that you get to go to do it- what does Dion geek out about?

[00:42:29] Dion Cooper: So I'm naturally a techie. So when I get to work on projects that are going to involve some of the high tech, looking at some of the cutting edge technologies such as, destination dispatching or we've had the privilege of working on some high tech industry-

[00:42:42] Paul Burns: Yeah

[00:42:42] Dion Cooper: facilities and just getting to immerse yourself in that business for a bit and learning their processes. It's just very interesting and it makes for a unique day in the Middle East.

[00:42:53] Albert Ng: Yeah. Man, geeking out, I don't know. The stereotypical Chinese person. I'm sitting in front of my spreadsheet, right? Figuring out, okay- You're working on every corner of it, right? ... let me optimize this design. Running those kinds of simulations, tweaking every parameter that would give the edge and make it right and playing with the options, right? And then ultimately what I want to arrive to is giving my client a very informed decision that they can make. And of course, I have my recommendation, but there's limitations to the budget as well. I ... sometimes if I'm really into a project I sit at my desk until midnight and just ... just plugging away and focus.

[00:43:35] Paul Burns: I love it 'cause now if I get my spreadsheet done, I

[00:43:38] Mark Fairweather: know who to go to. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:43:41] Michael Kremer: Who's the best geek I know? Albert,

[00:43:43] Mark Fairweather: oh. Time zone's not a problem for you. Yeah, it is. He's working at midnight. Get on the phone.

It's a really interesting question, and I think that, in our world we always like high-rise. So we always think something that comes in that's taller, bigger, better, we think, "Whoa." But actually sometimes they're not the most challenging. And I think that the most challenging buildings are often, I think delivering something at the end that you can stand back.

The one we've done in London recently, you just stand back and go, "Wow." "We've done that, start to finish. And what a team effort.” And it's always a team effort, it's never one of us. And also, if we've been involved right from the beginning and then all the way through, and then we're then asked, "Can you carry on managing this building and the asset for us?" We've made it 'cause we've got the whole life cycle of that building, which is superb. I think also projects that sometimes go wrong can often be rewarding, and I'm thinking of one in particular where the design was done for a lift manufacturer who then pulled out.

And it made this building incredibly difficult for us to get over the line. And again, because of relationships with suppliers, we actually went to a single source supplier in this incident, and they helped us design a new system to be able to produce this building. And at the end of it, the client is over the moon.

They've got a building which works. It's a lovely [00:45:00] building in London. Yeah. And at one point it was a disaster, it really was. You know what I'm talking about. And it was a real scratch in the head moment.

[00:45:11] Albert Ng: The moment you didn't want to remember.

[00:45:13] Mark Fairweather: No. Yeah. But the output of it was we worked in a great partnership with a supplier, and they now actually from that have produced a new product. So they've actually got a product that they're now marketing around the world and it, as a dispatch system.

And I think most of the complexities of what we do now, I always find and I find it interesting, is the control systems and user interfaces, because, unfortunately a lift is still a box that goes up and down a shaft on a rope- Yeah ... and that's it. Yeah. The interesting bit and the technology behind it is often the control systems, how they're controlled, how people, the people flow of the building and the interface. And they're the most exciting ones I think we get involved in.

[00:45:48] Paul Burns: So we describe that as type two fun. The, at the-

[00:45:51] Michael Kremer: Type two fun?

[00:45:51] Paul Burns: Type two fun. Type two fun. At the time it's pain, and then afterwards it’s-

[00:45:57] Mark Fairweather: I like the type two fun.

[00:45:58] Paul Burns: I hate doing the type one.

[00:46:00] Mark Fairweather: Yeah, you tell me yours.

[00:46:04] Paul Burns: So the geeking out bit, I think my team get bored of me saying that I'm a metallurgist by training. That's what I did my-

[00:46:10] Michael Kremer: Is this a fair summary?

[00:46:12] Paul Burns: Half of it they get bored of. You know you said we got 10 minutes.

Yeah, okay, we got to watch it. We might even we may as well go now. Yeah. We'll walk away.

[00:46:19] Michael Kremer: We'll get this on camera for everyone.

[00:46:20] Paul Burns: Hey you invited me, right? So that's, it's very engineering. Very kind of technical training. If I have my time over, I'd do psychology.

[00:46:29] Mark Fairweather: Interesting.

[00:46:29] Paul Burns: Because what we deal with is moving people. Yeah. For sure. And we try and hit waiting times, and we try and not fill lifts too full. And we try and imagine what a crowd of people coming in the morning into an office building is and it's all psychology. It's all how people respond to other people.

True, yeah. And what, how do people change when they're in a crowd? How do we measure the passage of time without an outside influence, and that kind of stuff. And that's the kind of bit the uninformed geeking out. That's what I do, try and imagine what that is. And another part of the business that D2E is involved is what we call facade access, which is the window cleaning, the cradles on the top.

[00:47:08] Mark Fairweather: Yeah.

[00:47:08] Paul Burns: And you would not get me in one of those.

[00:47:13] Mark Fairweather: Me neither. Yeah.

[00:47:15] Paul Burns: The height and all the rest of it. But there are some incredible people who do use the machines.

[00:47:21] Michael Kremer: Yeah.

[00:47:21] Paul Burns: And they work on, or they work with strategies that we've developed, so the psychology of how do we make that as safe and as just not freaking out as possible. That you can cross this roof space, or you can go to that edge, and it's all still good. So yeah, the psychology, that would be where I would go.

That's a massive place ... that's but-

[00:47:44] Albert Ng: Yeah ... like you say, moving people, and it's like elevator. It's the box that everybody walks into. It's invisible. We know nothing about it, or the general public knows very little about it, and there's so much behind it. Yeah, there's so much.

And understanding [00:48:00] what are all the attributes that make a building work.

And the psychology piece of it.

And ultimately, moving away from just pure performance aspect. Of course, we have to meet it, but there's the whole experiential aspect to it. The experience.

[00:48:18] Michael Kremer: Yeah, absolutely. An elevator’s not important until it doesn't work. And then all of a sudden, it's the most important thing. I mean if I have a room- the experience is- with no hot water, they move me to another room. Yeah. If I have a hotel with no elevator, I actually get a workout in.

[00:48:28] Dion Cooper: In a perfect world, it's invisible.

[00:48:29] Mark Fairweather: Yeah.

Yeah. People don't notice them when they work correctly. Exactly.

[00:48:31] Michael Kremer: Yeah.

[00:48:32] Mark Fairweather: Yeah.

[00:48:32] Michael Kremer: Yeah. I like to say it's a magic box, you walk in, and the doors shut, and they open up, and you're in a different spot. Yeah. You felt funny for a moment in the meantime. And they open, you're like, "I'm in a different world." It's absolutely fascinating.

Yeah as we just wrap up, and look, we could talk forever. And if you're following us and doing this, these are the types of things that we want to do going forward, where we have more engaged conversations with experts who really do these types of things.

And just have the normal conversation because I think that is what helps drive and educate people just a little bit better to see what we really do. But so you guys work with folks from around the world, domestically, locally, regionally, whatever in different markets. And I haven't prepared any of you guys for this one, so this is one where it's like- But hopefully you'll build off each other.

But just what is that one piece of advice you could talk to maybe a client you haven't worked to in the past. Not about yourself, but just working with a vertical transportation consultant in general. What's the thing that you could tell them like, "Hey, you know what? This project is going to be a lot better if you just, blank. Start early. Engage me often." What are... If we just kinda go down the road, build off each other or yeah. So then we'll start with you, Dion. What's that one thing?

[00:49:31] Dion Cooper: I would say definitely start early, but I would also say focus on the details and how the building is going to ultimately flow, and how people are going to move throughout the space.

[00:49:40] Michael Kremer: Yeah.

[00:49:42] Dion Cooper: with a lot of the mixed use building, as we mentioned earlier, buildings just operate differently.

So a lot of the rules of thumb that you may have used in the past may no longer apply. So taking that hard look and understanding of how your building is functioning, and also as you're making changes to your programming, understanding how those programs are going to impact that movement throughout the building- Sure

Is, I would say, of the utmost importance.

[00:50:06] Michael Kremer: Wow.

[00:50:06] Albert Ng: Kind of not just keeping an open mind in where the project could lead to. Projects shift and morph so quickly. Like hybrid work. And the flow of that is completely different in that regard. And having that discussion brings into the details.

[00:50:29] Mark Fairweather: Exactly.

[00:50:30] Albert Ng: And then I can give you a product that is going to stand the test of time. Yeah.

[00:50:35] Mark Fairweather: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think it's, for me, we've already said the starting early, early engagement, flexibility, all of that, absolutely.

One thing that Albert, you said there is that “We don't know what the future brings.” Who would've thought five years ago COVID would come along, and it knocked us all for six. We were talking in London about the office would never come back. Sure. The office has come back. So I think- one person described a building to me [00:51:00] once, or how we should design buildings, as a theater. And when you think, theaters have been around for hundreds of years, and what they do is every few years they completely change 'cause it goes from one show to another. And so basically you've got the fabric of the building, and those theaters are never going to be knocked down.

They'll be here in another 100, 200 years. Sure. So for me, talking early to a client, it'll be not only what do you want now, but you can't think what's going to be in 100 years, but design that building and design the core to be able to allow for- ... what may happen in 10, 20, 30 years time. There may be another COVID.

There may be another major event. There may not be another major event. Your building might go from residential to commercial to mixed use to hotel to premium living to low-cost living. And it's very hard. And it's not always possible. You were talking about a job the other day you're doing where they're putting in false doorways up the shaft so that in the future if they want to open those up, it's not a major job to do. So my message would be every single building is unique. Engage us early, be flexible, keep an open mind, and try and visualize what might be in the future.

[00:52:06] Paul Burns: Yeah, and I think I think the guys have covered pretty much everything.

I think if I was to talk to a client and give them advice, it would be really clear with us who your market is. Who are you pitching this at? Because we've worked on pretty much every type of building. Haven't done too many theaters actually, but we've worked on pretty much every type of building.

And if you tell us who’s your market, who's your target market. We can give you some really solid advice on that. So it's, again, a talk with our team and we have this approach that it's not about the lifts, which sounds really stupid for a VT consultant.

[00:52:45] Albert Ng: Yeah. It's not a great career move.

[00:52:48] Albert Ng: Yeah. We might have to cut that part out of the- Yeah.

[00:52:52] Paul Burns: What it's about is the building as a product.

[00:52:54] Albert Ng: Yeah.

[00:52:55] Paul Burns: And like every product, the client's trying to pitch it at a particular market. They want to sell it at the highest premium, they want to keep costs low, and they want to launch it into the market as quickly as possible, and our job is to make that product the best product that we can. So be really clear with us on who your market is, and then we can help you deliver that.

[00:53:14] Michael Kremer: This is wonderful. Thank you guys for your time. Like I said, there, I think it came out the 80 years of collective experience that we have here, and it's only getting better.

I think that the global perspective from both your international experience going outside of your own markets into the actual markets that you guys serve. We want to say thank you for all who listened in today. We're excited to have more of these. At any given time, reach out to us.

You can reach out to Albert at any time. Apparently, he's up at midnight in Paris. So we'll be good there, but-

[00:53:41] Mark Fairweather: They don’t know which region I'm in.

[00:53:46] Michael Kremer: Yeah.

[00:53:46] Mark Fairweather: They don't think, oh,

[00:53:46] Michael Kremer: it's from- yeah. Yeah. Thank you all very much. We appreciate your time, and till next time.

[00:53:50] Mark Fairweather: Yeah.

Thanks.

[00:53:51] Michael Kremer: Absolutely.

Cheers.