Webinar

[00:00:00] Steve Broom: Good afternoon, everybody. Depending on the market you're in, maybe it's a late morning, but we appreciate you guys jumping on. As Michael said, the top 10 pitfalls of elevator modernization. My name is Steve Broom. I'm the Senior Director of Business Development. I have 27 years in the elevator business.

25 of those were as an elevator contractor, so I kind of bring a lot of years of experience to this. So I look forward to the questions, I look forward to the presentation. Misty.

[00:00:39] Misty Munoz: Hi. Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Misty Munoz. I'm the Vice President of Sales here at VDA. I'm based in Los Angeles, and I'm going on year 14 in the elevator industry.

Ken.

[00:00:52] Ken Donner: Yeah, I'm Ken Donner. I'm the Area Manager. I'm based out of Atlanta, kind of handle the Southeast, kind of the whole area other than Florida.

[00:01:00] Steve Broom: Wonderful, wonderful. That's your team today, so let's go ahead and be cognizant of time and get going, as we want to be aware of your schedule. So we'll dive on in to the top 10 pitfalls of elevator modernization.

So with number 10, pushback resistance to modernization. Modernizations incur significant capital expenditures and disruption to the building. It's pretty much construction inside the building. Tenants' resistance to the concept of modernization is inevitable. They see the project going on, they don't know everything that's involved in it, so there's a lot of resistance to that.

The modernization is important because of, these are the key drivers. The traditional life expectancy of an elevator is between 20 to 25 years. That's a number one reason to look to modernize, but however, what's become more prevalent these days is equipment obsolescence. The equipment's just becoming unreliable.

That's going to be a key driver for elevator modernization. Some other considerations for the building: increased safety, meets current and latest code, improved energy efficiency, and enhanced system performance. So moving on to Misty for number nine.

[00:02:13] Misty Munoz: Okay. Number nine, budget shortfall. Nothing can derail a project quite like an undersized budget, right?

So as you're determining what your budget should be for the project, there's a few things you want to take into consideration. Number one, you want to look at the scope. Is it well-defined, right? And not just within the hoistway, but outside of the hoistway. The elevator is a high-value asset, but it requires a lot of infrastructure on the building to support the operation.

So you want to look at related work, which can consist of 40% of the overall cost of modernization. Some of the other things you want to look at is price escalation. A lot of times the bidding process occurs in one calendar year and you're identifying all those vendors and gathering all those quotes, and the performance of the modernization takes place in the following year.

You want to make sure that whatever quotes you gathered, those prices are still relevant for the performance, right? Other things to consider, tariffs. Many elevator components are sourced globally, so you want to understand if there's an impact for importing those goods. And then you also want to have a contingency.

As we all know, if you've gone through a home renovation project, you know when you start opening up walls and digging in ground you're likely to find some things that you hadn't expected. So you want to make sure you have a contingency fund in case any of those things surface during the course of modernization.

Steve, over to you for number eight.

[00:03:32] Steve Broom: Number eight, who's the prime contractor during a modernization? Local workforce regulations require that a prime contractor be identified. So who's that going to be? Is it the architect? Is it the general contractor? Is it the elevator contractor, or by default, is it the building owner or slash management team?

The prime contractor's responsibility is for the entire scope of the project, not just the elevator work. Their role is to coordinate, organize, and oversee the health and safety activities of multiple contractors. So like I said before, if the prime contractor's responsibilities are not assumed by the contractor, it defaults with the building owner and management team.

Misty, to you for number seven.

[00:04:18] Misty Munoz: number seven, cabs overweight. Cab interior's the most interesting part of an elevator modernization because that's the component that your occupants and tenants engage with the most, right? So you want to ensure that as you're taking advantage of switching out some of those key mechanical components, you're also looking at the cab interiors.

Are we looking at new floors? Have, has the car operating panel been damaged by vandalism or things of that nature? So what you want to consider is the cab weight, the machine, the counterweights. Critical components to the elevator systems have been designated based off a certain speed and capacity that was intended during the original design.

As you're looking at upgrading your cab interiors, you want to make sure that you're remaining within 5% of the intended cab weight. So you have to be mindful of that when you're selecting, some nice high-end finishes, some marble floors, things like that. You want to make sure you're staying within those restraints of the actual elevator design system.

Steve, number six.

[00:05:20] Steve Broom: To number six, unknown underground conditions. This is for hydraulic elevators only, where buried jacks are replaced. Most of the time when you've got older elevator equipment, it can either be possibly a single bottom jack if it hasn't been replaced, or it could be a flat bottom jack.

So if you have that older hydraulic elevator and you're looking to possibly upgrade your jack during the modernization, there are risks involved. How Misty's talked before about contingency, this is where that contingency could possibly be needed as well. So the risks include if the cylinder hole collapses when they're pulling it out or while the jack is out, it's going to be a change order.

If water egresses into the pit, it's going to be a change order. If the hole diameter is insufficient for the new jack, it's going to be a change order. So without a proper risk mitigation plan for the above items, it can result in significant project delays and extra costs. Misty, to you for number five.

[00:06:21] Misty Munoz: So number five, electrical feeders So what you're looking at regarding electrical feeders is sizing and capacity. Newer equipment is going to have different draws on your building infrastructure than older equipment, right? Specifically when you're looking at DC motors transitioning to AC gearless machines.

So first and foremost, you want to ensure that the electrical system is designed to accommodate the new equipment, right? The second piece you want to look at is voltage. Most aged equipment operates off of 208 voltage or 240 voltage. Newer equipment typically requires 480 voltage for drives and machines to operate efficiently.

So in the event that you're upgrading to some of those newer systems, you want to ensure the existing electrical infrastructure can accommodate. Either you're going to need new feeders, or you're going to need a step-up transformer to accommodate that equipment. So you want to take that into consideration. Now, with shunt trips, we all know that shunt trips are designed to terminate the equipment or cut power to the equipment in the event of a fire life safety event.

That's smoke, heat, fire. We want to make sure the fire department does not walk in on energized equipment in the event of a fire event. So one of the things we want to look at, again, does the shunt trip voltage match the electrical voltage so that it can shut that equipment down in the event of a fire?

Ken, I'll turn it over to you for emergency power discussion.

[00:07:42] Ken Donner: Yes. On your emergency power transfer switch the old systems probably do not have a time delay before it switches back and forth to normal and emergency power, so that has to be examined. And also the emergency power generator size, because depending on building codes in the area, all elevators in that group may have to run and be sure the generator is large enough.

As well it has to run the HVAC and the machine room lighting. So you have to check the generator size potentially could be affected.

[00:08:18] Steve Broom: All right

[00:08:18] Misty Munoz: Steve, I think over to you. Yeah

[00:08:20] Steve Broom: Moving on to number four, fire alarm panel replacement. Most modernizations require interconnection to a fire alarm system. If the fire alarm panel does not meet current elevator code, it may need to be replaced at a significant cost. These are items where your consultant will definitely help identify these items during the surveys and during any preliminary work that needs to be addressed.

Options to customize or modify the fire alarm system or add just a standalone dedicated elevator recall panel can be explored. It could be a possible option depending on what your cost restraints might be. So more importantly on this, the fire alarm panel replacement is key, and it's got to be identified, and the scope of work has to be very clear.

Your elevator consultant will address the fire alarm system in their scope of work. Whatever consulting firm you use, it's imperative that these items are identified in advance and put in the scope of work. If not, it can cause tremendous cost on the backside or in the form of a change order.

Moving on…

[00:09:28] Misty Munoz: Number three, safety equipment retained. So it's very common during the course of modernization, you want to identify if there are specific components that can be retained. At the same time, you want to make sure that you're taking advantage of the fact that you're taking the elevator out of operation.

There's already a disruption to the building. You want to make sure you're capturing as many components that can be switched out or need to be switched out during this critical time. The expected life of an elevator is typically 20 to 25 years. When you go through a modernization, you really are trying to give it that new lease on life.

So whatever components you decide to retain, you want to make sure that they can support that extended life cycle. With safeties and buffers specifically, typically it's very common to ask for these things to be retained. But again, as we talked about, there are certain components that are affected by capacity and speed, and these are no different.

So if you're changing anything else within the system that relates to capacity or speed, you want to make sure that the safeties and the buffers are still appropriate for the new application. Again, if you decide to replace these or find that you have to replace these after the fact, it can be quite costly.

So make sure as you're evaluating which components to retain, which components to upgrade or modernize, you're looking at everything holistically. Specifically, you're looking at corrosion, damage and again, compromised integrity to ensure that it can maintain that new extended life cycle. Steve, number two.

[00:10:58] Steve Broom: Number two, schedule slippage. Now, this is, these last two slides will probably be the longest that we speak about, just 'cause they make such a dramatic impact during the modernization. Like it states here, it's critical for elevator projects to stay on a schedule. This can cause potential cost impact to the building with schedule extensions.

First thing is a realistic schedule planning. When you're going through a modernization, it's imperative that building management is letting the consultant, the contractors know of any upcoming projects that may be in the building. For an example, if you're right in the middle of a modernization and you've got a move coming in or a move out, and you've got to have that freight car, and they're modernizing, and it's going to be down for another five to six weeks, that is a definitely disruption to the building.

They're having to think outside the box now and get creative on how to get the tenants in and out. So speaking with the, as managers, as speaking with your elevator consultant, your elevator contractor of dates that are coming up that could impact the modernization is critical. Next one, overtime allowance built into contract.

So understanding that- Things happen after hours. People get sick. Delays can possibly occur from personnel, from material. And to keep that on track, allowance, having an allowance of overtime built into the contract will help give that buffer during the modernization. If you do need to do something after hours, you're not having to do a bunch of change orders.

Next one is detailed schedule from contractor. So as a consultant we bid it out, we ask for a scope of work, and then at that point we're looking for a schedule. Now, once we get that schedule, we understand that things can happen. We understand especially with the tariffs and delay in materials, those can delay certain aspects of it.

But we've got to have something detailed from the contractor to be able to give to the management team. In that schedule, what I'm really looking for as a consultant is certain aspects of it can be delayed by reviewing the shop drawings. Those can go back and forth two to three times, five to six times.

It's all depending on how detailed the contractor is in reviewing them once they send them over to the consultant for review. So if we can bring that down to a shorter amount of reviews to make sure it's accurate. That will allow us to pretty much stay on schedule, but if we're going back and forth six or seven times trying to get the drawings approved, that's going to delay the schedule.

So we want to be cognizant of that on the front end. I'm primarily looking at from once that first car is taken out of service, that's when I'm really looking to hold them accountable to a schedule, 'cause now the process is underway. We're looking to say, "Okay, do you have the material? Everything's on site. You're ready to rock."

We're going to be paying attention now to are we following the schedule? Now it's really on the contractor at that point. Next thing is going to be oversight and project management. To be able to keep something on schedule, you've got to manage it. You need either somebody from the building or get your consultant involved to help identify any possible slippages that are occurring or things that could put delays onto the schedule.

So I highly recommend, depending on the number of units, the amount of time, having, either weekly meetings, monthly meetings. You've got to be continuing to have that communication to make sure we're staying on schedule. And then the final area in this area is performance guarantees. I know if there's any elevator contractors on the call, those are things that they don't like to see.

However, the reason why consultants really put these in is we've got to hold them accountable to that schedule. Once that schedule is created and that first car is taken out of service, building management has expectations that they're relying on to tenants, ownership, so forth. So we've got to have something in there to be able to have a little bit of teeth and something to hold them accountable to that schedule.

We also understand that things happen out of control. As long as we're having, go back to the project management meetings, if we're talking about those in advance, that allows us to prepare for that and make adjustments to the schedule, but their performance guarantees is something that consultants are really going to push to say, "We need these in here to make sure that we're holding the elevator contractor accountable to that schedule."

And to the number one pitfall of an elevator modernization, Misty, I turn it over to you

[00:15:34] Misty Munoz: Thank you. So the number one pitfall is inadequate scope definition. So as we know, the scope is critical to a successful project. What are we doing? Why are we doing it? Typically, there's something that's triggered the modernization.

Like Steve touched on, it's either a reliability issue and it's mainly a reliability issue. So your equipment is going out of service consistently for a systemic issue. What is it? Is it doors? Is it operating speed? We want to make sure that as we're identifying the components to modernize, we're addressing all of those issues that could potentially come up.

So for example, some items that often get overlooked, the drives and the machines, safeties and buffers, like we already touched on. Cab interiors, again, this is the most interesting part of the modernization because this is what everyone engages with. This is how they're going to know that it's new, right?

Your occupants and tenants. And then specifically obsolete equipment, right? So equipment goes obsolete, the manufacturer stops making it, it becomes harder to find, it becomes harder to repair. So you want to take advantage of performing a modernization to identify all those obsolete components and get them switched out as quickly as possible.

Again, identifying any components after the modernization can be critical not only to the cost, it can be more expensive outside of the modernization, but also critical to impacting your building operation. Again, the elevator system, you've already set it up for it to be pulled out of service. You want to make sure you're capturing everything that's relevant to extending the life cycle of that unit. Next slide, please, Steve.

So in conjunction with the elevator modernization, right? It's common to only focus on the elevator system, so the machine rooms, the hoistway, all those things. Typically we overlook the building infrastructure, right? So it's common to anticipate the elevator only when planning the modernization. But like we touched on, there's so many components of the building infrastructure system that the elevator relies on to operate efficiently.

So some of the things you want to look at for related work are building permits. Again, this goes back to who that prime contractor is. Who do these responsibilities fall under? Who's pulling any building permits or any elevator demo permits that need to be pulled with the AHJ? You're also looking at fire alarm upgrades potentially, so does the fire marshal need to do a review?

Do we understand what components do they still operate under the current code, or do we need to upgrade some components to transition to the new code? Same thing with electrical upgrades. We talked about feeders, but also there are additional lighting, cab interior lighting that maybe needs to be add or car top lighting that wasn't considered at the time of your original installation.

Heating and cooling upgrades for machine rooms. We all know that machine rooms have to maintain a certain temperature in order for the equipment to operate smoothly, specifically if you're looking at hydraulic elevators. Also, newer equipment, that has regenerative drives, those things give off a lot of heat, so you want to make sure you're considering any split units in the machine rooms or any sort of ventilation in the hoistway that's required as you're going through the modernization.

And then also structural upgrades. We talked about, modifying speed and capacity. What does that do to the building? Do we need to look at different rail systems? Do we need to look at brackets and bracket spacing? All of those things have to be considered when you're looking at the scope of work.

So it's always best to make sure you're engaging not only your facilities team, but also whoever your elevator contractor is or a consultant to help you identify what those critical components are going to be to your elevator system and your elevator modernization Okay. Steve, over to you.

[00:19:19] Steve Broom: Guys, that right there is the top 10 pitfalls of an elevator modernization.

Number 10, push back resistance to modernization. It's construction inside a building. People don't like it. It's uncomfortable. It slows things down, but it's a part of the process. Number nine, a budget shortfall, making sure you're controlling those costs. Number eight, who is the prime contractor? Make sure it's identified.

Number seven, paying attention to cab interiors and the weight that it can affect the modernization. Misty said, doing things after the fact can be a whole lot more expensive rather than the bidding process of it going through the modernization. Number six, unknown underground conditions. If you are replacing that jack, be cognizant of the potential risks that are involved, and make sure you've got contingency money in case one of those were to occur.

Number five, electrical feeds, making sure you have the right power to support the modernization. Number four, fire alarm panel replacements. We know it's going to have to be interactive with the fire alarm system. Can the fire alarm system handle the new controller? Does it meet current code? If not, make sure you're budgeting for that accordingly.

Number three, safety equipment retained. Are you changing the weight? Are you changing anything of that nature that affects the safety equipment? Be very cognizant. Number two, schedule slippage. Making sure, I know that contractors don't like this, but make sure you've got something to hold them accountable to the schedule.

It's imperative. If not, it can affect a bunch of things on the back end of the modernization, especially the frustration with your tenants. And the number one pitfall of an elevator modernization is an inadequate scope of work. Make sure the scope of work, we highly recommend you use a consultant, whether it be VDA or anybody else, but use a consultant to make sure it's a complete scope of work and everything is being addressed.

If not, it could cause major financial restraints at the end. Guys, that's the top 10 pitfalls of elevator modernization. We thank you so much for taking the time to listen to us. Michael, back in your corner.

[00:21:39] Michael Kremer: Go ahead and keep it on this slide, Steve, because this will just give people a great reminder of kind of what you two spoke about as we went through.

So we have some questions that were dropped into the Q&A, and then ones that were dropped into the chat. So I'll just ask this. But everyone else who's on there, go ahead and continue to ask questions as they come in. What Misty or Steve or Ken say might trigger something else.

So we have some time. We can take up to the next, 5, 10, 15 minutes to answer questions. We appreciate our subject matter experts being online here. We'll give ... As you can tell, I'm just kind of jabbering here to give them a little bit of a break so their mind- ... can just kind of reset. So that's what I'm best at doing.

[00:22:16] Ken Donner: We're

[00:22:17] Michael Kremer: ready,

[00:22:17] Ken Donner: Mike. We're ready.

[00:22:18] Michael Kremer: All right, you're ready. Okay. Rosanna asked this one. She said, "Who's responsible for advising the association of any building deficiencies that could impact the elevator modernization prior to the start of the project in order to avoid delays and unforeseen costs?"

She said she's currently finishing 14 elevator modernizations, and they've had issues with the shunt trips and fire pan.

[00:22:42] Steve Broom: Okay. Ken, if you don't mind, I'm going to let you take that one 'cause it has to do with the fire alarm and electrical panels

[00:22:51] Ken Donner: Okay. And not knowing how this project was set up, but usually when we do surveys, we try to point all these items out that they need to be addressed. Okay? Now, it... we usually point that out in the related building work. I think the question is whose responsibility. Is it under the elevator contractor, or you potentially scheduled that separately?

But it should have been pointed out in the early planning stages because, again, that's some of this hidden cost we're talking about. It shows up when you go get inspected. You probably won't pass inspection because of some of these items. So one- It should have been called up front by the, probably the elevator consultant for sure.

[00:23:31] Misty Munoz: Yeah. So one thing I'd like to add, and great answer, Ken. The other thing I would say is it depends on how your modernization was set up, like Ken said. Did you get just a scope of work from your service provider, and they s- were recommending a modernization, and these are the things that they're recommending?

Typically, that's only exclusive to the elevator equipment, right? So like Ken mentioned, it's always best to engage a consultant 'cause they're not only looking at the equipment within the hoistway in the machine room, but they're looking at the building-related items as well. So all those things that you talked about, fire alarm shunt trips, those should have come up in a modernization survey done by, a third party typically and get written up in a modernization specification, right?

Which helps the elevator contractors understand what exactly you're looking for them to do within the modernization.

[00:24:20] Steve Broom: Misty, great point, and I'll just... I'm going to just kind of reiterate what Misty said. It's getting a consultant involved, and in the survey processes where hopefully those items are identified or those deficiencies that you're referring to are noted during that.

And then like Ken said, that can be put in the related work by others to make sure it's incorporated into the scope of work. So Rosa, does that answer that question?

Michael, back to you

[00:24:51] Michael Kremer: Yeah, I appreciate that. And that's a great point. Yep, she said it did answer that question, so thank you to you guys for doing that. Hey, this is great. Questions are coming in as you guys are answering them, so guys, keep these coming in. We love these. Okay. This one's from Robert.

Robert says, "In present times, what elevator company with your experience, has had the most success?" That's a kind ... That's a broad one. That's a tough one, but, and I think you guys are going to find a unique answer here. But I'll turn that over to our SMEs.

[00:25:16] Steve Broom: So you say what elevator companies have had success?

Yes, has had the most success. I think it, it varies by the market, and it varies by, yeah, the type of project. And so I think that's a very broad question. I think for me it's ... I'm not going to give you the name of a company, but I'll tell you this: these are the companies that I'm recommending, are the ones that have a past history of no change orders, meeting their schedule, but most important thing is communicating.

Communication is critical. I'm looking for elevator contractors that want to communicate proactively, not reactively. So I'm looking at past performance. Obviously price is a major factor within that. However, previous work, communication, market expertise, and the type of job will matter, make a difference in who I recommend for a specific type of job.

Misty or Ken, I'll turn it over for you for your input.

[00:26:14] Misty Munoz: It ... No, absolutely. I think rather than identifying a company, it's best to look at the behavior. So communication is key, right? Yeah. You want to make sure, like Steve mentioned, you've discussed that upfront with whoever you select what your expectations are.

You also want to look at holistic scope. Again, what, outside of the elevator, and it's a fair question to ask, outside of the elevator system, what else do I need to consider as part of the building infrastructure during the modernization? I think you should look at lead times specifically, because as Steve mentioned, you want to understand how the overall installation process is going to affect your building operation.

For example, if you're a retail space, maybe you want to avoid the holiday shopping period, right? Or if there's other timeframes that are more important to you, for example, summer months at universities, maybe that's when it's best to do a modernization. You want to make sure that whoever you're selecting is able to incorporate those deadlines that are important to you into their schedule and into their overall installation plan.

So again, I would look at behaviors, and I would plan accordingly for how you want those behaviors I would say incorporated into the scope. Ken I think you had something you wanted to add as well.

[00:27:23] Ken Donner: And Steve touched on it, I think every market is different, and at what point in time, because elevator companies have a huge turnover.

So if I, you had asked me, a year ago, I'd have probably named a company was, is the strongest in an area. Today that may be a different answer. But every city is different- Depending if it's a large city or small city, and where they have the manpower and management The actual support.

[00:27:48] Steve Broom: Nice.

[00:27:50] Michael Kremer: Yeah. Good great answers, everyone. And to Ken's point, he's had 51 years experience. So he started, I think we said earlier, when he was five years old. So he has experience, and he's been living this. Listen to what Ken says. He knows what he's talking about great.

Here's Joe, he has a point that he's making here with associated with the number one pitfall of inadequate scope. He says, "Associated with number one would be two considerations. If you're converting an existing freight elevator to passenger, it's not a modernization, it's a change in use. more code re- requirements kick in." Then also he says, "Also, if you're making upper floors wheelchair accessible for the first time, make sure upper floors are set to accommodate wheelchairs, such as door width, bathroom facilities, areas of refuge, et cetera." So that wasn't really a question, I just didn't know- Yeah.

Misty, Steve, or Ken, if you just wanted to address any further, or we can move on.

[00:28:38] Steve Broom: No, he's- Yeah ... spot on. Spot on.

[00:28:40] Misty Munoz: Yeah.

[00:28:40] Michael Kremer: Yeah.

[00:28:40] Misty Munoz: Great things. I would also say gurney compliance, right? So if you're doing- ... a hospital modernization, you need to consider gurney compliance as well. Something that touches on all floors.

You want to make sure those are sized appropriately, and the doors are on the right side to allow for the gurney. But great points, Joe. Thank you.

[00:28:57] Steve Broom: Yeah. Thank you, Joe.

[00:28:58] Michael Kremer: Yeah. Thanks for submitting that. There was a question that, and I- I'll go ahead and answer this one. It says, "Would it be possible to get a copy of this presentation so they can share with the chief engineer?"

Absolutely. What we're going to do is in addition to sending the recording, we'll make sure to send a PDF version of this, and you can share that along with Misty, Steve's and Ken's information if you want to reach out. Or you can always reach out, 'cause, we're... The way VDA is set up, and we got people all around the country, we'll make sure to put you in touch with the right person, the right expert in that location.

So when we send that over to you, feel free to use that information that we send to reach out. So yes, you will get this information provided. Okay, here's a great question. This one's by Jason: Do you have more success with using the elevator contractor as a prime or a typical general contractor as the prime with the elevator contract as a sub to them?

What percentage of projects are managed by a typical GC versus elevator contractor as the GC?

[00:29:54] Steve Broom: So on, on that one, it's... obviously that varies. I'd say the majority of the projects that I've handled, we like the elevator contractor to be the prime. But if you've got a building that's demolition, or like we talked about earlier, that maybe is going from commercial to residential, where a general contractor's engaged, then yes, at that point, you're definitely going to see the general contractor as the prime.

But the majority of a traditional modernization in an existing building I would say would most likely be the elevator contractor. However, I know in certain markets and Ken can express on this, the architect- is the prime contractor. And so I'll let him explain a little bit more on that, but yeah, I would say in my, most of the, my dealings, it's been the elevator contractor's been the prime

[00:30:43] Ken Donner: I think a lot of smooth, having a smoother success, I think I agree with Steve, the elevator contractor, because they hire people that are used to doing modernizations in this scope of work. Probably a big part of my jobs are through general contractors because of the size of the project and the architecture directly involved in that process.

Again, they don't fully understand it, so there's a lot more questions, a lot more coordination. Ends up going well, but I think sometimes it's smoother through an elevator contractor

[00:31:17] Steve Broom: Misty, do you have anything you want to add on that or are you good?

[00:31:19] Misty Munoz: Yeah. Just one thing to add, I think was what you both are saying, is it depends on the depth of the modernization, right? Are you just looking at one unit or a couple units a bank, or are you actually retrofitting the entire building? In which case, again, like Steve mentioned, if the general contractor is already involved it's best to let them do that work.

But otherwise, typically it's on the elevator contract to manage

[00:31:45] Michael Kremer: You-

[00:31:46] Misty Munoz: You're on mute, Michael. There's always one

[00:31:49] Michael Kremer: I, made it, I made it, what is it? Almost- I made it almost to October with- ... being, without having done it, so that's not bad. That might be a new personal record. Okay. Dang it. All right. No great questions. We got 'em keep still coming in, so we're gonna keep rolling with some of these.

Here was one that was put into the chat. Once construction in the car is taken out of service, how frequently should the contractor meet with building management? Weekly? Otherwise? Thoughts.

[00:32:15] Steve Broom: So in my opinion, it also depends on how many crews, how many elevators are being taken out of service.

Do you have one crew on the project, two crews, three crews? How big is the project? If you've got multiple banks, multiple crews going on, I think in the beginning of the project to make sure we're getting everything rolling on the right steps, I'm all about a weekly meeting. Once the project is underway and we see that traction's being made, I think you can definitely move to monthly, but minimum would be a monthly meeting

[00:32:48] Misty Munoz: Yeah, I would add, yeah, I would add to that.

It depends on the application, right? So if you're doing a hydraulic mod, those tend to move pretty quickly, so maybe you're providing brief updates. You can never over-communicate, I'll put it that way, right? If you're doing a traction car, obviously those, it's a little bit more of a lengthier timeline, so you probably want to communicate a little bit more frequently just so everyone understands what progress is being made.

It's also an important opportunity to communicate any channels or hurdles, or challenges or hurdles that are coming up, or if you're requiring coordination from the building management. For example, to take terminate power to the machine room or things like that. You want to make sure you have at least a scheduled touchpoint so that you're communicating some of those logistical items that are related to the building facility.

[00:33:35] Ken Donner: Very

[00:33:35] Misty Munoz: good.

[00:33:39] Ken Donner: Nothing big to add. I agree with all those things, but I think sometimes, again, depending on the size of the job, but I think on site, the communication from the mechanic to the operations people or management just on daily progress, if there's any issues, that should happen I think almost daily.

[00:33:54] Michael Kremer: Yeah.

[00:33:54] Ken Donner: As far as team meeting, could be definitely weekly or twice a month to stay on top of- Yeah ... the whole schedule, project schedule

[00:34:04] Michael Kremer: Great question and great answers, guys. I appreciate that. Here's one from Jonathan. We're looking into installing card readers in the elevators, which would be designed... sorry, let me start that over. We're looking into installing card readers into the elevators, which would be designed to control access to specific floors in the building.

Should this project take place before, during, or after the elevator modernization?

[00:34:27] Steve Broom: I think price-wise for your labor, during the modernization, during a competitive bid environment is definitely going to be your best pricing. I would highly recommend just due to the flow of the building, during the modernization would be the ideal time that I would recommend, but it also depends on what the need is for the building.

For example, if the building needs it immediately per a lease contract, obviously that's got to go prior. But I would definitely not do it post. I would definitely do it either prior if the lease requires it, or preferably during the modernization. Misty or Ken?

[00:35:05] Ken Donner: No, I agree during the modernization, as far as the extra traveling cable wire if needed.

How you're going to incorporate the card reader, surface mount or behind the car operating panel, behind the call stations. So during the modernization is the best time. Yeah.

[00:35:18] Misty Munoz: Yeah, absolutely. I agree with that. The other thing you want to take into consideration if you do it before the modernization starts is you typically have to pay your service provider to come and take the elevator out of service and do standby.

So what better time to do it than when the elevator's already out of service and being worked on for other issues? So modernization is definitely the best time if you can wait to that point. Yeah.

[00:35:44] Michael Kremer: Great. We got more questions coming in but we'll probably cut it in about the next five minutes just to let people get back to their day and our SMEs as well.

But this is fantastic. I got a couple more here that I'm going to read. This one comes from I'm not going to be able to pronounce the name, so I'm just going to say a very talented individual. What issues may arise if we leave an elevator that has been modernized for a while due to some specific recall issues?

They said that they had just done one where they're having some issues fixing whatever is going on with the fire alarm panel

[00:36:16] Steve Broom: Repeat the I guess I didn't- yeah ... completely understand the question.

[00:36:19] Michael Kremer: Sure. What issues may arise if we leave an elevator that has been modernized for a while due to some recall issues?

[00:36:26] Steve Broom: So if you're talking about leaving it out of service while you figure something out, it's obviously you have the new equipment and stuff. I, my concerns, and Ken and Misty can kind of maybe expand on this, but obviously the longer you let a car sit, all of your rollers get compressed. And so once again, you can get flat spots.

That would be one of my concerns is to make sure the elevator's not getting, it's not getting any usage. I want it to travel some just so the components are moving. But that would be my primary. But Ken or Misty, I'll let you expand on that.

[00:36:56] Ken Donner: I think that's right, and the elevator company can come in and actually run that, put it on night mode to run so those things don't happen. But of course, I don't know what kind of timeframe we're relating to here, but... I agree.

[00:37:10] Misty Munoz: Yeah, nothing to add. I agree with both of them.

[00:37:12] Michael Kremer: Yeah. That must mean we got the right answer.

Math is a democracy. If we all say two plus two equals five, it's five. That's how we're going to do it. All three agree? We're good. Yeah. There we go. Sylvia says, "Hey, very good information, everybody. Can you talk about bundles and why some elevators don't have them?"

[00:37:28] Steve Broom: Bundles. I guess can she clarify what she's referring to by bundles?

Unless I'm missing something. Misty or Ken, do you understand what bundles are?

[00:37:38] Misty Munoz: Maybe banks? Maybe she means banks avail- bundles

[00:37:41] Steve Broom: for cameras and readers

Ken I'll defer to you on this one. Maybe you- Yeah ... you're familiar with that terminology.

[00:37:51] Ken Donner: Yeah. Now, some companies do have, I think, their own type of security, but you usually already have security in the building and the cameras at other places. So they tend to utilize what you have in the building, so they're all universal.

[00:38:03] Michael Kremer: Sylvia clarified, said, "Cables on top of the elevator."

[00:38:09] Ken Donner: Oh, extra bundles of wire,

[00:38:11] Michael Kremer: Oh, bundles

[00:38:12] Ken Donner: of

[00:38:12] Steve Broom: wire

[00:38:13] Ken Donner: So- Okay ... so if they don't know, this goes back to the other question, depending on doing the cameras and card readers during the modernization, if we know that, we specify the additional wiring and what's required.

It'll be part of the traveling cable or an additional traveling cable. Okay? So if they don't know it, they're going to give you their standard traveling cable, and then they're going to want to install another one, which is going to be, at this point, quite expensive. Okay, so it's not standard to include that.

There's usually a few, spares in there. Is it the right amount? Is it going to be compatible with your equipment? I don't know. But usually you need to tell them upfront so they supply it.

[00:38:52] Steve Broom: Or what type of cable do you need? What type? Is it a Cat 5? Is it just- Exactly ... twisted shielded pair?

What type of cable is needed? But ideally, I think to answer your question, on top of the car it's, there should not be bundles, big bundles on top of the car. It should be going through the traveling cable- ... which once again will be spec per what the client is looking for proactively.

Those are the discussions that hopefully your consultant is having with the property management team to identify do we want cameras, do we want card readers, and so we can make sure the scope of work matches the needs of the building.

[00:39:26] Ken Donner: And we have the additional spares. If you do it six months later, the spares are there.

Yeah. All the wires are there

[00:39:33] Michael Kremer: That's great. And thank you. Sylvia or I'm sorry, forgot who submitted that one, clarify that's what you're talking about, and said that their elevators is from the '80s maybe that led to some of that as well, right? Hey- I

[00:39:45] Steve Broom: could

[00:39:45] Michael Kremer: see that

[00:39:45] Steve Broom: being the case.

[00:39:46] Michael Kremer: There you go. There you go. I'm going to go ahead and ask the last question. Henry, we're going to, we're going to answer Henry's question, and then after that I'm just going to drop a little poll into the to the chat section for everyone while these while our SMEs are answering it. You don't have to answer it, it's just we, when we do webinars like this, there's a lot of interest in people say, "Oh, man, I would, I wish they would reach out to us."

Basically we're just going to say, "Hey, do you have any if you have any questions or if you have any need for someone from VDA to reach out to you, just go ahead and answer yes, hit submit, we'll get your name. You don't have to submit. If you don't, that's okay, too. We just want to make sure you guys have that opportunity.

If you do that, then we'll find a way to reach out to you. With that, I'm going to ask the last question here. And Henry says, "In a major mod, how difficult is it to get new equipment into the machine room on top of a 20-story building?"

[00:40:34] Steve Broom: Okay. I think the first thing like that we got to identify, okay, are we replacing...

I guess we're replacing machines at this point, if we're talking about that. And so what's the access? Can we get it up in the elevator? Depends on the type of machine that they're getting. Can it be brought up through the elevator and then put some A-frames out and hoist it up to the top? Or do we need to get a crane involved?

Ultimately, we're going to create the scope as consultants, and it's going to be the responsibility of the elevator contractor to determine how they plan to get the machines. Majority of the time on a 20-something story building, they're probably looking at the edge to go, "Okay, where can I either crane this in?"

Or back when I was on the contractor side, we'd have to use a helicopter sometimes to be able to, bring the equipment and drop it off and make a couple different picks that day to get the equipment up and down. So usually if you're looking at something like that and you're having to use a crane or something like that, it's probably going to be used twice, most likely on the time to get all the equipment up, and then most likely a second time to be able to get some of the equipment down if they can't break it down to take it down the elevator

Ken or Misty?

[00:41:42] Ken Donner: No, everything he says is good. That's something I do look at during my survey because it is part of the planning phase, affects schedule. I've even had situations where we've cut holes in the machine room floor and you put the trap doors in, right? Yeah. So you're looking at some. There's some now that have trap doors, but over the years they put AC return ducts and piping, plumbing piping, and electrical wiring.

All that has to be rerouted to get access. But sometimes in this case, we're moving big gearless machines, it's going to be difficult. So it's excellent questions, but it should be looked at up front.

[00:42:15] Michael Kremer: Yeah. It absolutely- 'Cause

[00:42:17] Ken Donner: the elevator contractor's going to ask the same questions.

I usually, I want their input because they are experts in it, 'cause some are very creative. Yeah.

[00:42:30] Misty Munoz: Yeah, great point. I would add to that, the path of travel you just like Ken said, you want to look at whoever you selected to perform the modernization to take the lead on that. But the other piece, how challenging, it really depends on how flexible or nimble your building is, right?

What are the constraints? Ken said, maybe you need to cut out a wall, and that's the easiest way to get the machine into the machine room. So if you're able to be that flexible, then it's not that challenging at all, to be quite honest. But if you have a lot of conditions that are, pipes that would have to be rerouted, other electrical equipment that would have to be re- rerouted 'cause it's affecting a path of travel, then it can be quite difficult.

So you want to look at what type of equipment machine you've selected specifically, and what's its capability to be broken down and maybe built in the machine room once the equipment has made it there. But great question.

[00:43:17] Michael Kremer: Yeah.

[00:43:17] Misty Munoz: Tricky. It's a tricky question.

[00:43:19] Michael Kremer: Yeah. We had a lot of great interaction today.

I do want to say thank you to Steve, Misty, Ken. You guys were absolutely wonderful from the front end to the Q&A at the very end. It's sometimes you got- the almost like the best part of the presentation is the Q&A, right? So we can dive in there, we can learn from each other, and I think the folks who are watching the webinar have that opportunity to say, "Hey, I have that exact same question," which means that, it almost makes- there's almost a little bit of a comfort in that, right?

Just knowing that, "Hey, this is something that I'm experiencing too." Before we go, I'm just going to ask Misty, Steve, and Ken if there's anything else they wanted to share before we go. If not, that's fine. I just want to make sure you guys have got everything covered. So I'll turn it over to Steve, Misty, and to Ken if there's anything else.

[00:44:03] Steve Broom: So I'll go ahead and start this. Michael, thank you for leading this. Appreciate everybody being on the call today. As you see on the screen, please scan the QR codes. Put our information in your phone. The biggest thing as consultants is we're a resource. Use us. We add value, but we're there when you need us.

So please don't hesitate to call us, reach out to us. If we need to get engaged or something like that, we'll talk pricing and we'll talk whatever. But once again, use us as a resource. That's what we're here for

[00:44:35] Misty Munoz: Yeah. Thank you so much again from me as well. Thank you guys for making the time to join us.

The speaker series is something that we're adding here at VDA, so if you have some feedback for us, please share it. We want to make sure that these are beneficial, that they're educational, we're touching on all the things that are important to you guys in the building trades. The other thing I would say is yeah, reach out to us.

Phone calls are free, like we always say. Yeah. So please, if you have something specific, give us a shout so we can help. Thank you. Yeah.

[00:45:02] Ken Donner: I just want to thank everybody for attending. Appreciate it.

[00:45:05] Steve Broom: Man of many words.

[00:45:07] Michael Kremer: Yes. Yes. Hey you, my phone calls aren't free. You call me I charge. I have nothing to offer, but that's just how I do that.

I think that's why Misty Steve, and Ken don't call me anymore, but that's okay. I'm just, yeah, it's, I'm like an old 900 number. Hey appreciate everyone today. As Misty said, we're going to be doing more of these. Be on the lookout watch your email, watch online, follow us on LinkedIn.

Just go search VDA and you can see the different activities that we have coming up as they do. And we're going to keep trying to provide information that you guys want to see and hear. So with that, I want to say thank you to everyone. Have a great rest of your week and be on the lookout for the recording of this in the near future.

All right, everybody. Thanks. Have a great week. Take care. Bye-bye.